Keeping Faith in Leading with Zara Mohammed (Muslim Council of Britain)

How do you keep faith in yourself as a leader while balancing the high expectations and intense media scrutiny that come with being ‘first’? What do we mean by ‘systemic Islamophobia’ and where does it lead? Can we still find reasons to laugh, even when faced with hate and divisive rhetoric? 

We spoke to Zara Mohammed - the first woman, first Scot and youngest leader to be elected Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain – about what leadership means to her, how she keeps faith in times of crisis, and her thoughts on the future of interfaith in the UK. 

The Muslim Council of Britain is the umbrella body representing 500 Muslim member organisations across the UK. Find out more about their work here and read their latest reports and initiatives around Black Muslim identity in Britain, representation of Muslims in the media and analysing recent census data on the British Muslim community. 

Follow the Muslim Council of Britain on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Follow Zara on Twitter and LinkedIn.

This episode contains descriptions of hate crime. If you’re affected by the issues discussed in this episode then support is available, including from Tell MAMA and Stop Hate UK.

Keeping Faith: A How-To Guide is part of Women’s Interfaith Network's 2024 Keeping Faith Programme. Read more about the programme here and be the first to hear about upcoming events and ways to get involved by signing up to our newsletter. Views expressed on this podcast are the speaker’s own and may not reflect the views of Women’s Interfaith Network.

Hosted by Maeve Carlin

Produced by Maeve Carlin and Adam Brichto

Edited by Adam Brichto

Executive Produced by Lady Gilda Levy

Theme music composed by Jamie Payne

Logo and Artwork designed by Jasey Finesilver

Support from Tara Corry

Transcript

Maeve Carlin: Welcome to Keeping Faith, a how to guide, a new podcast from Women's Interfaith Network exploring how women keep faith in ourselves, in each other, in a cause, or in religious faith so you can learn how to keep faith too.

I'm your host, Maeve Carlin, and today I'm speaking to Zara Mohammed, the first woman and youngest leader to be elected Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, an umbrella body representing 500 Muslim member organisations across the country, from mosques and schools to charities and business associations. Zara's election in 2021 made her an overnight public figure, and our conversation explores what it feels like to lead under the microscope of media coverage and public scrutiny, how she keeps faith in herself in difficult moments, as well as unpacking the systemic issues facing the British Muslim community in 2024. This episode was recorded before the July General Election and also includes a first hand account of Islamophobic hate crime - so please listen with care and access support via the links in our show notes if needed. Keeping Faith: A How To Guide is part of Women's Interfaith Network's 20th Anniversary Keeping Faith program, a year-long conversation bringing women together to unpack what keeping faith means to them. You can find out more about the programme and get involved via our website, blog and social media, with more updates to come in future episodes.

But for now, let's jump into our conversation with Zara Mohammed.

Maeve Carlin: Well, Zara, thank you so much for being here. 

Zara Mohammed: Well, it's my pleasure. I'm really, really excited and hopefully looking forward to a really great conversation. 

Maeve Carlin: Yes, us too. So when you were first elected Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain in 2021, the first woman and youngest person to ever hold the post, you were suddenly the focus of an enormous amount of media attention.

You've spoken about your ethos as a leader, the importance of courage, self-reflection, bringing people with you as you create change rather than imposing innovation from the top down. But has being first and being so hyper visible as a result shaped how you lead? 

Zara Mohammed: Um, wow. Um, you know, people always ask me this question, but you've asked me it in such a different way.

I had my textbook ready answer and now I've got to think about it. And, and I guess if I'm honest, it absolutely has. I guess hindsight's great because you can really review it and I think at the time I didn't have a reference point. There wasn't a female reference point, an older female, older and wiser that I could lean into.

A lot of the, my predecessors were significantly older than me. Um, we're talking, you know, 15, 20, 30, 40, you know, so, so from a generational point of view, I was very, in some ways I felt quite isolated and nobody really understood me, that whole misunderstood type thing. From a gender point of view, I felt I am the first, I don't even have a reference point of how it's done before.

And also from an institution point of view, the institution wasn't designed for a young woman, 29 year old from Glasgow. and this was lockdown, so I was having to work around like 8am to 8pm days because I was proving myself to the world. So the first part of that journey was all about proving my value, my worth, my leadership and even accepting to myself that I was worthy and I wasn't what I felt was an imposter, like how on earth could I be a Secretary General?

I just thought that was, that actually sounded crazy. Why on earth would anybody let me lead? And then secondly, it was then owning the fact that being different made me powerful and using that, so when my speeches were being written for me at that time, it sounded like a 45 year old man, I was like I'm not a 45 year old, my friends are going to know this is not me.

So then I just changed the way we did our comms, um, being really socially present on Instagram and socials, I think someone even said you take far too many selfies. the idea was everyone said resoundingly, you have made the organization so much more visible.

Because in a day, so I was everywhere, events, you know, I was traveling. So visibility was a great feature because I was youthful in that regard, really on socials and comms. I use that to my advantage. And the other thing that I thought was really important in terms of being a first was, once I finally owned the space and was comfortable to lead and to be myself, I kind of then started to share my ideas and push right?

So I had someone say, you know, I've been doing this for 35 years. What do you know? And I was like, well, I'm kind of in charge now. So maybe we'll just do it my way. And then I had times where I was up against the grain. I was doing things, not status quo because I didn't know any better. I just thought that's what we should do.

And so in some ways my newness and being a first not having the baggage and the history allowed me to do things that people hadn't thought of in a way that they hadn't thought of and made me make the place a lot more colorful, a lot more open, a lot more accessible. We've got a younger team we've got more female presence.

We do a lot more diversity. But also I was in places that maybe we hadn't been before. And we got featured in Vogue. That was crazy. Um, and I share that one, not because I was also like a little bit star struck meeting Vivenne Westwood for the first time, but, but because it meant so much to communities I represent, mums and girls are like, "you know how much it meant to us seeing you there, you know, in this massive fashion brand", not for being a fashion icon.

I don't think I can claim that, but because we are being normalised, like young Muslim women are feeling confident about wearing their headscarf, and I was being represented for my cause and my purpose, and so in some ways being the first is something you can really own and use, but it comes with its loneliness, its challenges, uh, and of course its difficulties, which is part of the job, isn't it?

Maeve Carlin: I think what you said there about proving yourself and also feeling this heaviness of representing so many people and the joy of other Muslim women seeing themselves in you, but also that's, that's a big thing to carry on your shoulders as a leader, isn't it? 

Zara Mohammed: Yeah, I think what I realized was something really important that every leader, especially every woman, because we have super women syndrome, is you don't need to do everything and you don't need to do it alone.

And I think leadership, particularly for women, you know, we're, we are scrutinized. People look at us, what we wear, how we talk, how we walk, how we deal and interact with males. And I think I felt the sense that I had to be really tough and strong and confident and bold and perfect and not make mistakes, which is what everybody goes through.

Quickly realising when I was making all of those mistakes and not doing very well at all of them that actually if I was just myself…you know, like my personality, for example, is quite jokey and it's a Scottish thing. We just have a laugh, you know, and if it was a bit more easy-going and you head to the capital and it's Parliament and Westminster and politics and media and Islamophobia, you know, we're talking some really serious political stuff and it's hostile and there's me having a little giggle and a chuckle thinking, all right, well, we better be serious now, you know. So part of my personality is don't take life too seriously. Yeah, I'm in a really serious position and there are times where I think you have to learn things like wellbeing.

You know, so at the start what was good was um, because of lockdown actually, I would do the daily walks and I'd get out in the morning and it was a local duck pond. I would talk to the ducks in the morning and I would make time because I realised I was just getting so glued to the work and then as the restrictions ease and we're back out.

I visited over 300 affiliates. I wanted to meet the members. I wanted to hear what they had to say. And, “hey, do you still believe in us? Do we really think we should be leading us?” All that kind of stuff. And, and I kind of realized at that time that I had to pace myself, like real meaningful change doesn't happen in a day, or in a week, or even in a month. It takes time. You've got to build relationships and trust. And so I think I've gone through that process of development of a good leader, but, pressure and stress are good. They're not bad things in and of themselves. Burnout is bad and taking yourself to a place where all you're living in stress and pressure is not good. But I'm someone who does quite well under pressure because of my jokey attitude and not taking anything too seriously. Sometimes you need stress to get stuff up and moving and getting things done Sometimes we achieve the best things because there's a crisis and actually, there's a lot going on, 

Things push us and drive us, but I think also it's how you manage it. And you, and I'll finish on this point, you've got to learn when to say no.

Maeve Carlin: Yes, I think that's something a lot of us need to hear. I'm also glad that, uh, I'm speaking to someone else who's a believer in the therapeutic power of duck ponds, which is something that I remember throughout my university years, going to speak to the ducks. Essential wellbeing strategy. We should also say, because you've mentioned it a couple times, that not only were you the first woman, but you were the, also the first Scottish person to lead the Muslim Council of Britain, which is a very important thing to mention as well.

Well, you've spoken about imposter syndrome, which is something that so many of us women struggle with, particularly as we're sort of socialized to believe there must be someone better than me. Why would I take up space and put myself forward? I found it really powerful hearing you share your own feelings of imposter syndrome, and I think it's so important for us to see other women feeling that discomfort, naming it, but still putting themselves forward and leading.

Can you share with us how you keep faith in yourself as a leader? 

Zara Mohammed: Yeah, I mean, I think it's the nature of faith. They always say, you know, we always cling to faith in our worst moments. So being in a high stress position, um, is pretty good for reminding yourself that I think, you know, we're always really humbled in some ways to how fragile we are and how much we actually can't do.

And I often find that the superwoman part of me is always like, do more and push more and push harder and let's get more out and done. And then the faith part reminds me, especially when I’ve got prayer throughout the days. We take a minute, which is great because I get away from my screen.

When you're kind of taking that moment to pray and reconnect, you're just always thinking and mindful of yourself. You know, there's a couple of moments I'll share. So, so one is around, you know, there were times where in the organisation, something happened in the news. I was on the front line of it or we've had a crisis and I've got, I've got to lead that meeting and and there are moments where I really am clinging on to faith because I know that actually there's just things outside of my control.

And that's what faith does, it's a great comforter when you realise you don't, you're not in control, you're really not in control and you gotta do your best and that's it. And there's other moments where you realise actually what's important in life. It's not really the work. It's who we become as a result of this.

So if I become a worser person in this role, then I don't think it's a good thing. And faith is a reminder that, you know, like family, friends, loved one, we see so much happening in the world and the news and it's awful. And you just think to yourself, gosh, I've got a lot to be grateful for. And sometimes when we're moving at a hundred miles an hour, we forget gratitude.

And it's only when things go to pot, then you start to realise, Oh, actually. A call with my mum is probably the best thing that I could do. In those early days, my mum used to drop food off for me because she knew I wasn't eating. And I was like, and now I think about it and I thought, gosh, you know, not everybody has that, but having people who care about you, we all have hopefully.

And I think faith is a great teacher. And you know, we've had, obviously we've got things like Ramadan and charity is a big part of the Islamic faith. And so I remember in lockdown Ramadan, we'd all have like a bit of a biscuit exchange. My neighbours they weren't Muslim, they weren't fasting. But I would share snacks, they would share snacks. It was just some really great solidarity, wasn't there, between people? We'd leave little post-it notes and stuff and checking in on people. And I think sometimes it's really easy, particularly if you're in a high paced, fast working environment, to forget what's important.

But also I think time alone. Time alone is great and it's in all the faith traditions, um, and I think there's always that kind of, whether it's secluding yourself - there's not always a cave to hide in, but I have actually, I've hidden under my desk at times to re-create a cave.

Sometimes it just got awful. But, you know, sometimes just sitting in quiet, and it's really difficult to do that with your thoughts, can be a little bit uncomfortable. So, but being okay to be a little bit alone because often we're so influenced, I mean look at our feeds. I fall asleep probably on my phone looking at Twitter which is the worst thing you could possibly do.

Right now I'm going to blame the political system for that. But you get what I'm saying right? We're constantly absorbing and actually it's not healthy and so switching off, getting away. You know that 45-minute flight sometimes from Glasgow to London, or London to Glasgow where I have no internet, is maybe sometimes very liberating for me.

And that's what I love about the outdoors and I'm a big outdoors person, is how small you really are in this little big world, just a little thing, right? So don't carry the whole weight of the world on your shoulders, you're not meant to. 

Maeve Carlin: That's a good reminder for a lot of us, I think. And you spoke about some of the women in your support system there and something we feel very strongly about at WIN, at the Women's Interfaith Network, is that just because women aren't at the front of the photo op, or given the official titles that of course we know they deserve, that doesn't mean they're not leading their communities.

So, can you share some of the women who inspired you, or encouraged you, or whose example you followed, perhaps not in the most traditional way, in taking on this role? 

Zara Mohammed: Yeah, I mean, it's a really great question and I'd like to really like reinforce that, that not all women who lead are visibly doing so and sometimes that's by choice.

Not everybody wants to be at the front on the stage. Not everybody wants to be in the photo and there's a lot of really humble, you know, they're just doers. They just get on with it. They're not fussed about the accolades, the credit, the Instagram. And I think tribute and credit to those. And now we say that, you know, I might be in the first, but God, there's plenty of women, you know taking out the faith and all the other differences, as women generally.

We've all come a long way, right? And we're still in that struggle. Um, so really there's, there's many voices and people we'll never know that have made a difference to society. And in the point around, you know, my role models, I mean, this is the thing, I never saw anyone, anybody that looked like me in a positive way, on TV, in a leadership position, on the news, in politics, into any kind of field.

My mum was probably a great role model for me in that she taught me lots of really important things. So she got married young, but she went to work because she says, I want you to see that women work. For her, like she had aspirations to do great things.

But in the circumstances, she wanted me to see that it's important to work and earn and have your own income. And both of my parents said that. They said, look. As a woman, you should always have your own financial independence. The second thing, and I guess credit to both my parents, is they're big feeders, they just feed the neighbours.

It's a very cultural thing. My parents would just always be feeding people. And I remember my dad, he was a chef at a restaurant, and he said that he had this, some, some guy came in, he said, I'm really hungry and I don't have any money.

My dad said okay, just sit down and he just fed him and I just kind of thought about that, that's a really uncomfortable situation for a) the person to even go and ask and b) for the person We don't know if they're gonna offer the food or not, you know, let's think about that.

You know, we say “Oh, that's a really wonderful thing” but we don't know in today's society how much that really will still happen. In some places, absolutely. And we've got great cultures of that all over the UK. But I just remember him telling me that and I just thought, gosh, you know, that's something really important.

And I think the other thing that they told me was when I put my headscarf on, which was in the second year of university. That was a conscious decision I did. So at 16 I really like, read about the religion and asked, “why am I Muslim”, like, you know, “what is that? what am I doing?” and in philosophy at school as well.

So I intellectually approached faith, which is always misrepresented: people of faith, they're just all, weird, spiritual people, I don't know, we don't know anything, but you know, I intellectually entered the conversation. And I remember my mum saying to me - she doesn't wear the headscarf - she says, if you're going to wear the then you need to be responsible and know that you will be a role model, a representative. It's not something that you want, but it's going to come with that. Responsibility comes with it, but also that doesn't mean you're any better than anybody else, whether they are of the faith or not. And, you know, she really like told me off. She was, you know, doesn't make you any superior or any better or any more spiritual.

So she gave me a kind of a, a bit of a tough talk. And I remember thinking about that because when I hadn't worn the headscarf, I remember. feeling really judged myself for not wearing it and thinking gosh I wasn't as spiritual and now the benefit of being the Secretary General, although I'm a visibly Muslim woman, I know what it's like on the other side and I also know what it's like to be on all sides of that religious spectrum and it in some ways really helped that judgement and that kind of understanding and compassion.

And so I share it just to let people know that actually my parents told me that face value and aesthetics are not what count and in our own Islamic faith, you know, God judges you by your efforts and intentions, you know, not by the outward, not by the appearance. And so it really reminds you that often we assume people are better. And to take out the faith of it, I don't know, because someone is really well dressed, or because they're earning more, or they've got a bigger house, or they've got, it looks like they've got their life together, right?

But actually, we just really don't know what's going on, and that's the nature of life, we're not meant to, we have to just figure it out, right? And so I think that whole role model and example thing, because I didn't have external people to look up to, it drove me to go to a place where I was like, no, hold on a minute, women can lead.

I didn't think I had to do the leadership thing. And you know, and women can be on the news. I mean, for me, it was like, we were represented so rubbish on the news. It was always some crazy person they'd find to represent Islam and Muslims. I didn't think I was going to be the person on Sky News. Um, but you know, be careful what you wish for.

So I think there's this whole idea that just because we don't see what we think should be in society It's not an excuse for us not to do anything about it. 

Maeve Carlin: Yeah, I mean there's a call to action in there, but also there are so many different ways to keep faith, as you say, and I think that's something that's really important to highlight.

Also, what you were saying about you know, women who are just doers and they don't, they don't want to be seen doing but they're going to keep doing. That's so reflective of the women we work with and, you know, we're always singing their praises because they're not going to do it themselves. 

Zara Mohammed: They hate it. They actually cringe at being given credit by any attention and, and society doesn't really acknowledge that some people just prefer to be in the background. That doesn't mean they're being oppressed. But it just means you just want to get on with it. They're not interested. It's liberating. That is liberation, I think, really. Not needing the credit. 

Maeve Carlin: We don't all have to lead in the same way. That's the key message, isn't it? We've been talking about, you know, being a visible Muslim woman, and we know that this is a very scary time for a lot of visibly Muslim women. There's been a sharp rise in Islamophobic hate crime alongside antisemitic hate crime since October 7th and, according to home office statistics, before October 7th Islamophobic incidents already made up over 40% of all religiously motivated hate crime in the UK. At the same time, we're also in a political climate where there's clearly a real reluctance to name Islamophobia as a problem or deal with it head on.

Something I've heard the Muslim Council of Britain talk about, which I don't think is getting enough airtime at the moment, is the structural or systemic side of Islamophobia. Could you share a bit more about that and what that looks like for Muslims in the UK? 

Zara Mohammed: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for highlighting that.

And just, you know, just the other day now Nigel Farage is going on about, you know, Muslims aren't patriotic and he's really worried about young British Muslims and Oldham doesn't speak English and, you know, all sorts of really, really dated, uh, tropes and Islamophobic comments. And I think, most of us are just like, we're really done with this kind of drivel and and coming, you know, back to that point, you know, rising hate crime, but actually it's a systemic part of it.

So when we talk about institutional Islamophobia, we're not saying that everybody is bigoted or, you know, racist, but we're saying, when it happens, do we sweep it under the rug? How does the system, the policy, the structures respond to an atmosphere where hate is tolerated? And for Muslims, particularly Islamophobia and Sayeeda Warsi says it's passed the dinner table test.

And that's why I talked about Nigel Farage. This man gets so much airtime and he isn't challenged. the way that others are challenged. And he was certainly challenged those interviews, but it was like, you know, light touch, “Nigel, is that what you really mean?” And he says it resolutely.

I think people can express their views and we have a range of diverse views, but the views that some are expressing right at the top of government, and we had Boris with his letterboxes and burqas, we had Suella Braverman saying Islamists are taking over, we had Lee Anderson accuse the Mayor of London of being controlled by Islamists. I mean literally, and the Conservative Party could not use the word Islamophobia. They said it was wrong, and they only said it was wrong because they were told by everybody. I think it was actual conservatives within the party that said, yeah, that's not on, you know. So, so there's this idea that institutionally it's acceptable and then it plays out in society in the physical and verbal and abusive side of it.

So one side of it is around our politics and how political structures facilitate more islamophobia. The other side of it is around socio economic. Muslim women are the most marginalised when it comes to employment. And so if you think about it, if I can't get a job and earn, right, I'm a young Muslim.I've got a degree. I speak English I've got the British values, but you still won't hire me. What's the problem? And I was in colleges up and down the country and one of them said you we've got this apprenticeship program and we've got a 40 percent intake of Muslims in our college, but none of them get apprenticeship posts. They never get them.

Maeve Carlin: Wow.

Zara Mohammed: Right they never get them and they say we know why it is. And they said, but the, the apprenticeships claim, “Oh, we're really small. We've only got two places.” Um, whereas bigger companies, it's harder to do that. So the systemic thing goes then. 

So on one side of it is political exclusion, right? And then the media just facilitate, you know, how they use their language, how they will demonise. The second layer is around our economic capability, getting a job, getting an education, how you're treated at the workplace. We found, so the MCB does a lot of stuff on the census with the ONS. So you can check our website, Striving for Success.

So we do all the data crunching on demographics of Muslims, what they do, what they look like, all the rest of it. And we found that although Muslims are more visible now in the workplace, there's hardly any at the upper echelons of work, right? We struggle when it comes to career progression, inclusion, so there's lots of evidence for that.

And I think, you know, if you think about it, is that 3.9 million Muslims now? Some of these are new refugee intakes, and some are like myself, third generation, now coming into fourth generation. You know, and yet we're still talking about things around identity politics and British values. And, um, that's a huge amount of people in a population that are demonised and you've got things like counterterrorism policy that unfairly targets Muslims and where I see the real big nub of the issue is a real misunderstanding of Islam and Muslims. So take out the politics, take out the media, take out everything out right…because it's all about faith.

If people really understood the faith and the people of the faith, right? So we're monotheists, for example. So we've got traditions in our faith connected to Christianity and Judaism, right? So if you took out our colour and our cultural diversity, right? We all believe in one God, then, right? We wouldn't look so different. 

And so that the point being is There's a lot about Islam that works really well in Britain and that's why we have the whole concept of the British Muslim. I, you know, I'm so proudly British when I'm abroad and we've got these things like queuing and, you know, very particular about, we're so bureaucratic, people get irritated, right? And people know when there's Brits. We just irritate people and we annoy them. Hopefully not Brits abroad style, but you know what I mean. The particularities around efficiency, you know, I was at JFK airport, I was like, Oh my God, they've not got a queue for the disabled people. And, you know, you've got some very hallmark British tendencies. 

Maeve Carlin: Queuing is absolutely core to identity, isn't it? As much as we'd like to say it isn't. 

Zara Mohammed: Queuing and a cup of tea with milk, right? What are we meant to do? I literally need to have tea and if I don't get tea don't give me a Lipton. I'm sorry. Just what am I gonna do with that, right? You know, good Yorkshire Tea, Tetley, a Yorkshire, uh, you know, Twinings. Whatever it is, but a proper cup of tea, you know. And by the way, most places in the world can't do good chocolate. Just saying. We've got pretty good Chocs and biscuits and even, but anyway, I deflect.

So my point being is that, you know, we have a Um, the Islamic faith, it fits very well with Britain. Because compassion and mercy and, you know, it's not a takeover plot. It actually says in our Shariah, which is our kind of governing law, it says wherever you live in the world, you are governed by the laws of that state.

Right? And obviously, there are things like halal food, which is fine, right? We live in a plural, plural society and all the rest of it, but the idea is that you become a citizen of that state, a proud one, and you embody the values and you bring the best of you, so you're supposed to serve in the best way. And it's like a kind of mutually agreed social contract, right? We're going to do our bit, you do our bit. 

What we're finding now is that the historical turbulence, the whole integration, all that nonsense, we're none of us are buying it. Look, we're integrated, we're here, aren't we? There will always be people on the fringes of every community, of every campaign, movement, group, you name it, that want to seclude and insulate. Everywhere in the world has these communities. These are people who fear their culture and all the rest of it, right? But the cross section, the broad base, is your neighbour, is your colleague at work, is your friend at school, is your teacher, is your doctor. 45,000 Muslims are in the NHS. They're saving British lives every day. You know, so if we look at the stats and the maths. I was getting a lot of hate crime when I attacked Nigel Farage and they were like, “Tell us how many Brits are in the army and this patriotism and ISIS fighters and all.”

So I just, I don't normally respond to trolls but I took a screenshot of the Muslim war memorial, you know, and it's like 2.5 million, 5 million served and one and a half million died, you know, for Britain and the armies. It's documented. We've been part of the history for a very long time and we've got lots to be proud of and lots to work on.

Coming back to Islamophobia, the reason that it's getting worse is because of our leadership. Really, leadership isn't saying “let's learn more about one another, let's be compassionate, let's be understanding, let's work together, let's collaborate, let's get people in jobs.” You know, “let's not just populate diverse communities in poor socio-economic areas where there's a lack of cultural understanding, you know, let's just dump some refugees” and, you know. 

So think about where people are being integrated and housed. If you're coming from a place in the world where your language is an issue, you stick them in a place where they've never met anybody like you before. I had someone say to me, “I've never met a black person before.” Or “Why do you wear that?” You know, you're gonna have some issues, but if we have good leadership that says, "and that's okay, because we're actually going to work together."

Like we know diversity brings good to the economy, good to education, good to theatre and arts and culture. And I just kind of think that, Currently, the leadership is playing culture wars. Ut's tokenising, it's demonising, it's accusing some groups of trying to take away our democratic values.

It's wanting to stop protests. It's wanting to, you know, clamp down on activists and activism and I don't know what the message of this current leadership really is at a time where we're saying let's all come together. They're saying, “no, some of us should, some of us really shouldn't, you know, because we don't really like that group.”

So, yeah, in a nutshell, there's a lot more to do in that space. And all of it ultimately leads to hate now, doesn't it? If you don't understand something, you're scared of it. 

Maeve Carlin: And it's that slow creep that you're describing of, if you see something normalised, then it's normal to you. And if you hear hate speech normalised, why can't you say it? Who’s told you you can't? Nobody. 

So, it's a very scary prospect, I think. And also that idea that, uh, every community has its fringe elements, its insular elements. Yet, why do we expect the Muslim community, which is so vast, to all be kind of walking the same party line? It's such an unreasonable expectation to have of any community, isn't it?

Zara Mohammed: A hundred percent. And you know, we're so diverse. We're also a much younger community than other communities. So we're still working it out between ourselves: how we're organising, what we're up to. And you know, if, if as generations change - young people are born here, they're schooled here - that will change too, right?

Everything takes time. See, then those fringes become really, really fringe. It's like the, the current right, far right wing, you know, it's, I mean, generally speaking. I recently faced a hate crime, unfortunately, on the London Underground, so just last week. And it never happened to me before. I'm one of these happy go lucky people - it's not changed my happy go lucky. But, you know, he looked a bit troubled, he was talking to himself, then all of a sudden, I was with my colleague, he started talking to us, and then he was bringing politics in, “what's going to happen to England?”

Then he tried to come over, and then my colleague stopped him and he said, you know, “what's going to happen to F-ing, just insert profanity, England? you lot are all taking over” - all that kind of stuff. And I just thought, gosh, you're in the most diverse city in the world, one of the most diverse cities in the world.

And I could just tell, like, nobody else was really buying it because everyone had switched off. You know, London's like, no one's really paying attention. Even I, I literally was like, is this a hate crime, like what's happening? I kind of took a moment, it only occurred to me afterwards what I'd experienced. He said, um, “I'm not a racist” before he obviously said all his other stuff. So he did clarify he wasn't a racist, said every racist ever. I mean, I'm not a racist. I was like, okay, sure.

But the point being is that, you know, they're on the margins. The haters and the extreme of all sides and the right wing, all that. They're on the margins. They are not talking to you and I. They never were. They may be talking about us. So I think there's this whole thing around reminding yourself allyship is really there. More people are with you and for you than against you. And actually so many diverse communities have gone through this journey. We talk about the Catholics and the Irish, you know, we talk about all these different minority communities from across the pond and places, you know, everyone's faced it. So Muslim communities are no different. But it's particularly hostile and challenging at this point in time because of the politics and Brexit, I think, has played quite a big role in that, unfortunately.

Maeve Carlin: Thank you so much for sharing that experience. It's so baffling when you build communities that are so connected and where our differences are the best things about our communities. When you see the other perspective, it can just be shocking and baffling in and of itself, can't it?

Zara Mohammed: Yeah, definitely. I think when you're so in a positive space where we're building and growing and working together and the mantras, you know, diversity and inclusion and all that stuff. And then when you experience hate, which I did. I was so perplexed by it, and I was like, “oh, okay, this is really happening.”

You know, because normally they're just stats, right, and experiences, and stories, and they're grim and awful, but I really was in a situation where I was experiencing it. I mean, it was, it was fine, but obviously it could have been a lot worse. I don't like to catastrophise, but it's that whole, you know, It could have been worse. He did physically try and touch me. 

And, but when I think about it, I was really thinking about psychoanalysing. What got him to a place where he wanted or felt confident to a) approach me? I was with a male as well. We're both in suits. We just come from Westminster. So we're both like kind of well-dressed and formal looking.

You know, he had this confidence that he needed to express himself. He needed to be heard. He felt emboldened to say what he needed to say. He felt he could even get physical and… but I think at the same time it shouldn't deter, like, we still turn up, we still show up, we still be strong, and I think at the end of it I actually, before we left - he was on a rant and swearing - I actually looked him dead straight in the eye.

And I did the biggest smile that I had possible, on that day I was wearing a red headscarf. Um, fire and passion. And I said to him, “you have a great day.” And just smiled and then left. And I just, I needed to let him know that like, it just made no difference to my life. He did not impact or change anything about my values or my beliefs. And I wasn't afraid. Right? And that's the whole point. They want you to feel, “Oh, I can't take the underground now. It's not safe”. Or, you know, there's something that you've done that's wrong. You know, or “I should have said this” or “I should have said that”. No, actually, he shouldn't have. And okay, then I'm going to let you know that it made no difference to me. So here's some eye contact to let you know, yeah, um, good luck. 

And maybe it's a little bit of Scottish firepower inside as well. Um, but I think, you know, it's with bullies at school. You gotta kinda let them know, it's a toughie, it's a toughie, but you're not scared. And at the end of it, you know, you're gonna end up in a better place. People who harbour hate are often always in some kind of pain, some kind of negative space.

Maeve Carlin: Wow, what a powerful way to, yeah, turn that dynamic around and show strength in that moment. We're speaking at a time, as we've been discussing, where extremism is at the top of the political agenda. Many voices from across faith and interfaith sectors are concerned that the government's new planned definition of extremism will have a disproportionate impact on British Muslim communities.

We’ve already seen the impact of the 14-year Conservative government policy of non-engagement with Muslim Council of Britain leadership, which, in a tragic move for interfaith dialogue, led to the closure of the Interfaith Network for the UK after the government withdrew promised funding due to their links to the Muslim Council of Britain.

How is this conversation around extremism impacting your members? And does the government's policy towards the Muslim Council of Britain specifically have a ripple effect for the wider Muslim community in the UK?

Zara Mohammed: Very topical. Obviously, there has been a general election call, so let me bring you up to date. So obviously, it was non statutory, kind of list that Gove was recommending, I don't think will be moving forward now. So he didn't put us on the list. Um, I think after a lot of lobbying and uh, we did threaten to go legal.

But just in the prelude to that, you know, we had a couple of instances which you talked about, and I think there's a bigger point around government engagement and, and Muslim communities. So in the run up, we had all the Lee Anderson stuff and then Michael Gove said, “Oh, I've got a list. I've got new definition of nonviolent extremism.” Um, And we were headlining to be featured in it and it was a complete blow to the organisation, to communities. I mean, I've got a background in International Human Rights law. I've never been called an extremist in my life. I'm wearing pink today. You know, these are not extreme colors guys.

Um, so I was just baffled. I mean, again, being the first leader of the all these different things that I am. And now all of a sudden I'm in a situation where my organisation under my leadership might be deemed extreme, you know, by a government list. So for us, it was totally bananas. 

Before that was the interfaith network closing down. The excuse was given that it was because one of our trustees was on their board. And I mean, interfaith network been around for 30, maybe 40 years. We've been a member 27 years. We have been a member since the beginning. I mean, they had a very principled stance and said, “Look, our network is about interfaith and community at a time where people need to come together, you want to pull funding, you never said it was conditional. We have lots of different members, none of them are illegal, so you give us a good reason as to why”, you know, and obviously the government ended up pulling the funding anyway. 

Um, so that was a big blow and then the Gove's list. It was not even a, it was an assessment. He never actually created the final list. And because he knew the backlash was, what's the conditions and the criteria? How did you arrive at this list? What qualifies anybody? And why is it you only seem to be targeting Muslim organisations, pro-Palestinian groups, and neo-Nazi groups? What is the corresponding thread there?

So I remember the um, Wednesday the announcement was going to be made as to whether we were going to be on this list or not and I kid you not it was, I mean we were in Ramadan. Half of my Ramadan was spent dealing with this situation. It was so painful and I had like, back to back into, like the Guardian wanted to do a piece and we were, everyone was waiting like, you know, the media's all on our case. Because they obviously will get it before we'll get it. There's like a pass down line. So whispers are coming that he's announcing it today. We're waiting and then we get the news that we're not on the list. There's not a list per se, but there's some names that are being floated to be considered, right? 

At that time, NewsNight want to interview me in the evening. The following day, the whole day's packed out and I just did the guardian feature. So I went on NewsNight and normally I'm so nervous to do media. It's NewsNight. I've never done NewsNight before. But I was super ready to tell Michael Gove what I had to say. And I went on there and I said, excuse me, “I think you need to have a look in the mirror.” You know, you've got a former prime minister who's out with Steve Bannon, a convicted criminal in America, praising a convicted criminal in the UK, Tommy Robinson. We've got, um, Lee Anderson accusing the mayor of London of being, you know, run by extremist. I said, you know, “If these aren't extreme, you know, what are, and you're calling us extremists”, you know. 

So then the whole morning - and you remember fasting I’m as well - I did ITV, Five Live, LBC, and I really got a really strong message out which was saying that, you know, we are the broad based Muslim representative body. We represent the women's groups who do coffee mornings, to the disabled groups, to the network of medical associations, to the charities that are working and operating all over the world and poverty relief, to mosques, schools, teacher forums. And so you by calling us extreme would be brandishing every single one of those, which is the cross section of the mainstream Muslim community, as extremists.

So, it, and the implications were vast. It was a disheartening time, devastating, but it also made the community see, and again, that point we talked about, which is, why are you scapegoating Muslims? Yet again? If you're not engaging with us, then who are you engaging? Who are you talking, what's happening with Islamophobia and the definition of Islamophobia? What does the Conservative Party engagement look like with the Muslim community at this present time? The point being is, you know, there's no relationship. 

It doesn't matter what party they are, it's the government. You represent everybody. And we're all paying in, right? We're all tax paying, we're all contributing, we're all working, we're all part of the ecosystem of the UK, yet we're being treated differently. And to the extent that we're being excluded and demonised for being who we are. So anyway, I think I got my point across. 

Where we're at now is there's a general election. I think there's lots of optimism. I think there's a lots of positive engagement across the parties. If there's a change of government, um, we're going to be getting our political pledges out. We're going to be getting Muslims registered to vote, encouraging people, you know, working with civil societies and getting ethnic minority communities registered to vote, have a voice. 

But I think it's a really good time for resetting and for saying we cannot go on like this. You know, we've got to move differently and I think there's also something around faith. Faith is so politicised. For people who are like oh you know, oh we're a secular society or whatever it is, faith is a huge part of the UK. You know, King Charles says he's a defender of faiths. You know, faith in Britain is a big thing. And I think faith and policy needs to have a different kind of approach now: more respectful, more inclusive, but partnership led. Faith communities bring a lot to the table, particularly for those who have no one and the system doesn't support. We saw that a lot in COVID. think I'm confidently optimistic. But I think there's a lot to do, a lot to look forward to. And if good people don't step forward, then who's going to do that? And we can't lose hope, can we? Because we're people of faith. That's what we've got to do. 

Maeve Carlin: Exactly. We're keeping faith. And I think it is really wonderful to have your personal insight of what it was like going through that period. And the personal slight that it is and for all of your members I can imagine, it felt very similar and very painful. Uh, so yes, hopefully the needle is shifting and the tide will turn.

Zara Mohammed: Yeah. 

Maeve Carlin: I'll keep faith on that. 

Zara Mohammed: Definitely. I mean, you know, you speak to your mum and dad about it and you're just like, is this actually happening? I’m I going to be an extremist? Like, what happens to my LinkedIn, like, you know, you basically think of all these really random, you're like, are people going to not be my friend anymore? Like, what happens? But like I said, I'm a bit jokey, so you know, it was really serious, but I was also like, it's not really good for my socials. Like, what do I do? I get uninvited to parties now. So yeah, there's real world consequences for such things, but you know, I think good always prevails.

Maeve Carlin: But that's part of keeping faith, isn't it? That's finding the humour or the points of light or the catharsis in a situation that is painful and feels dark and feels bleak. 

Zara Mohammed: 100 percent, yeah. And, and that's I guess the beauty of faith, isn't it? Which you're always finding something to hold on to. A reason to get up and to keep going.

Maeve Carlin: Thank you so much for being here with us, Zara, it's been such a fascinating conversation and I feel like we could keep talking for a long time. But I just want to ask you, as a take-away, how do you think we can keep faith in our ability to come together across communities, at this moment where the national conversation feels so divisive and polarised?

Zara Mohammed: A lot of people said, you know, “this is the end of interfaith, what's going to happen?” over the last six months. I don't think I really bought that. We have a rich tradition of interfaith work in this country. Really, really well built. Of course, it's going to have fractures. Of course, it's going to take a tumble, but it's grounded in shared morality. It's grounded in compassion. It's grounded in, you know, faith teaches us to understand, to outreach, to get to know, neighborliness. I think all of those qualities mean that, you know, we create a little nucleus of like getting to know one another and initiatives and events and stuff.

So I, I think that what the lesson though and from the crisis is that things have to change in interfaith. We need younger intake of people, I think, involved in interfaith spaces. We need more diversity. We need to know that things will be difficult. So we've got learning now on when things got difficult, which they have been, what can we do? Maybe sometimes we're going to have to disagree. So I think there's a learning in that, but that doesn't stop the work. If we build the walls and the barriers, I don't think that's a good use of our time, our world, our relationships.

But also, I think the communities are counting on us to find a better way and to find better leadership. And what I like about being a young faith leader, which is also what I am, another hat, is that I can go into, like, I spoke at a cathedral in Leicester. I was the first Muslim in 100 years for their big lecture that they had.

And they asked, how do you get young people involved? And I said, “You have to go where they are. Talk in the language they talk. You're not online. Interfaith needs to change too.”

It has to evolve and change and it's maybe not in a very long time. It's been very rigid or just coffee mornings. So perhaps the wake-up call is, you know, during COP26, interfaith was such a great part of eco mosques and eco churches and eco synagogues. You know, so I think there's things we can do. Refugees is another brilliant one. Churches have been brilliant voice on the refugees and the archbishop says amazing things and really slammed into that, you know, the bishops of the house of lords and all sorts. So, so I think that there's a space where we need to keep going, but the bits that were difficult, we can work on and we can learn, but we need more diversity. We need younger people involved and our comms need to change on how we do interfaith. That's my, in a nutshell. 

Maeve Carlin: What a great note to end on. Thank you, Zara, so much.

We’re so grateful to Zara for making us laugh and sharing her insights as a young woman taking up space in faith leadership. We know conversations around hate crime and Islamophobia can bring up difficult feelings, so please contact Tell Mama or Stop Hate UK via the links in our show-notes if you need more support. We’ll also share links to find out more about Zara’s work and the Muslim Council of Britain, including their resources and reports on Islamophobia, Muslims in the Media and Black Muslim identity.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Keeping Faith: A How To Guide. Subscribe now on your podcast app to be the first to hear about our upcoming episodes, and please leave a review or share with a friend to help more people find us. To find out more about the podcast, the 2024 Keeping Faith Programme or to get involved with the Women’s Interfaith Network, you can follow the links in our episode notes or go to wominet.org.uk. Until next time, Keep Faith!

Keeping Faith: A How-To Guide was created by Women's Interfaith Network. The podcast is co-produced by me, Maeve Carlin, and Adam Brichto. Our executive producer is Lady Gilda Levy. Theme music was composed by Jamie Payne and our logo was designed by Jasey Finesilver. Additional Support from Tara Corry.