Keeping Faith in Climate Action with Rabbi Debbie Young-Somers

How do we keep faith in climate action when governments and corporations keep dragging their feet? How does a ritual described in the Torah help women navigate life’s transitions in 2024? How do we nurture open dialogue between communities with hate crime on the rise? 

Our conversation with Rabbi Debbie Young-Somers, lecturer at Leo Baeck College and trustee of Faiths for the Climate, ranges from environmental activism to the importance of nuance in tough conversations. 

Find out more about the Wellspring Project

Follow Rabbi Debbie on Twitter and Instagram

Keeping Faith: A How-To Guide is part of Women’s Interfaith Network's 2024 Keeping Faith Programme. Read more about the programme here and be the first to hear about upcoming events and ways to get involved by signing up to our newsletter. Views expressed on this podcast are the speaker’s own and may not reflect the views of Women’s Interfaith Network.

Hosted by Maeve Carlin

Produced by Maeve Carlin and Adam Brichto

Edited by Adam Brichto

Executive Produced by Lady Gilda Levy

Theme music composed by Jamie Payne

Logo and Artwork designed by Jasey Finesilver

Support from Tara Corry

Transcript

[00:00:00] Maeve Carlin: I'm your host, Maeve Carlin, and today we're speaking to Rabbi Debbie Young- Somers. Rabbi Debbie is part of the Rabbinical team at Edgware and Hendon Reform Synagogue and a lecturer on religion and dialogue at Leo Baeck College. She is a trustee of Faith for the Climate, which works to equip and encourage faith communities tackling the climate crisis and is also involved with the Wellspring Project, an initiative working to open an egalitarian inclusive Mikveh in the UK. And if you haven't heard about Mikveh before, don't worry.

[00:00:37] We get into that later. You may also have heard her work as a regular broadcaster on Radio two's Pause for Thought, BBC London, and BBC 3 Counties Radio. In today's conversation, we'll be exploring how we keep faith in the middle of a climate emergency, re-examining ritual and what it means to us in 2024, and how holding on to nuance allows us to hold on to our humanity when dialogue feels impossible. 

[00:01:04] Keeping faith, a how to guide, is part of Women's Interfaith Network's twentieth anniversary keeping faith program, a year-long conversation bringing women together to unpack what keeping faith means to them. We'll be sharing more about the program in future episodes.

[00:01:21] But for now, let's jump into our conversation with Rabbi Debbie. 

[00:01:26] Maeve Carlin: Well, Rabbi Debbie, thank you so much for being here. 

Rabbi Debbie: Thank you for having me.

Maeve Carlin: I'd love to start by talking about your work as a trustee of Faith for the Climate. Can you share why you felt called to get involved with climate action? 

[00:01:44] Rabbi Debbie: So I think, on the one hand, it just seems logical to me that if we can't look after the Earth, we are failing future generations.

[00:01:56] And this incredible gift that we have, uh, is being squandered and has been squandered. Um, so I think it's partly just a logical sense of if I want there to be a future and I do, then this is core work. Um, I also think religiously, there's a lot fromJudaism that tells me I have to do this work. Midrash is a storytelling tradition that acts as a commentary on the bible. There's no one book of Midrash, but it's a kind of genre of commentary where, um, stories have developed over thousands of years that unpack either a letter or a whole verse of the bible and help us delve into it and explore it more deeply. 

[00:02:45] I think my favourite, Midrash, a commentary on the Garden of Eden tells us, uh, it's from Midrash Rabah, that God went on a walk around the Garden of Eden with Adam and showed Adam everything that had been created, uh, for humanity. And God warns Adam to look after it all, not to squander it.

[00:03:09] And the line in the Midrash that really stands out to me as God says to Adam, if you destroy this, there is no-one to come after you to fix it. In other words, God's not gonna come and tidy up our mess. God's not gonna, uh, buy us a new toy When we broke the one we were given, it's our duty. It's our responsibility, which for a, you know, 1500 year old text, I think is quite astonishing. The sense that God controls and manages everything in that time was much stronger than it is now.

[00:03:41] Um, so it's quite an astonishing Bit of, um, social responsibility teaching. 

[00:03:48] Maeve Carlin: Wow. What a powerful story and and and that emphasis on our responsibility and it reminds me of that slogan, like, there is no planet b. It's Very much there in that text all those years ago, isn't it?

[00:04:01] Rabbi Debbie: Absolutely.

[00:04:02] Absolutely. You know, it feels to me like God the parent, um, who isn't going to fix what we break. 

[00:04:11] Maeve Carlin: Of course, your involvement in climate activism goes beyond your work With Faith for the Climate. In 2019 you signed an open letter alongside faith leaders from different traditions calling for meaningful policy commitments to Net Zero. You were also a speaker at the XR Jews Sukkot celebrations.

[00:04:31] Why do you think these kinds of actions are important, and do you think Faith leaders have a particular role to play in the climate action movement. 

[00:04:41] Rabbi Debbie: I think if I'm honest, I've reached the point now, and I'm not sure I was there in 2019 but I'm not convinced that signing letters does anything. Um, I've kind of reached the point of of despair with letter signing. And I do feel like we need to be more practical in our actions. The XR, uh, Jews Sukkot, uh, event was actually a really powerful way of bringing people together.

[00:05:06] It was completely legal. We had police permission. It was in Trafalgar Square. Uh, it was part of a faith hub, um, that was part of the Extinction Rebellion actions. And we were able to harness the messages that the festival of Sukkot offers us, which are messages of human vulnerability in the face of nature, messages of our need to coexist with the nature around us because we rely on her for our food and our sustenance.

[00:05:36] Um, and it was such an obvious time to tie into climate activism. I think for me as a faith leader, the power of community to effect change is a really important part of this. Me doing my recycling, trying to give up plastic for a year, which I've done a couple of times, um, you know, trying to Buy closer to home, trying to buy second-hand. All of those things are really wonderful, andit's important to me that I take responsibility for that consumer action. But, actually, when more of us are doing it, it has more power.

[00:06:11] Um, so as a community, when we, for example, stop using disposable cups, That isn't just, you know, the plastic of my household. That's the plastic of potentially 400 people a week. So I think knowing that when we act as communities, the impact we can have is so much greater, and it also means you've got support in your actions. So I think faith communities are a really important place to harness people power and to harness the values that are really important us as people of faith in, um, understanding that we need to live in harmony with nature, um, and not try to, You know, only manipulate it to our own benefit. Because it's our benefit that there's a world in a few thousand years.

[00:06:59] Um, I I do understand people's wrestling with the actions of groups like XR. They do inconvenience people. You know what? Climate change is going to be a massive inconvenience, and it already is, and it's already causing death and destruction. It's a lot more than just having to sit in a queue on your way to work.

[00:07:18] Um, so I do think that that it is an important way of helping us think about the impact of these things. 

[00:07:26] Maeve Carlin: It's really interesting to hear how your activism has sort of evolved over the years, and that leads really naturally into my next question. But, Also, I think it's really hopeful this idea that every congregation is fundamentally a community with collective power. Uh, I think that's something important to hold on to. But, you know, when we look at recent COPS, the UN's decision-making body on climate change, that seem unable to move decisively against the fossil fuel industry.

[00:08:00] And in the UK, just last year, we gave the go ahead for the new Rosebank oilfield in the North Sea. I think it's so hard for many of us, and I'm speaking for myself as well here, to keep faith in climate action and our ability to reverse this tide of climate change. I know this is something you've written about for the Jewish News and elsewhere. I found this quote particularly moving. "There is hope. The battle is not lost, yet it needs warriors urgently." So how do you personally keep faith in climate action? 

[00:08:43] Rabbi Debbie: So I'm gonna tell you a story, and for me, it is a story that occurs to me often when I start to despair. And I think it's a story about the impact that, um, civil change and, um, Change from the government can create. So, um, in the early 2000s, I lived in Sweden, Uh, for a year.

[00:09:06] And I discovered on my first trip to the supermarket that you didn't just get a plastic bag. And this was astonishing. In the early 2000s, it had never occurred to anyone in the UK that you wouldn't get a plastic bag at the till. Um, and I learned I needed to either take my own bag or I'd have to buy a paper one, which would probably collapse by the time I got home. Um, so I started carrying my own shopping bags, And that became a habit, uh, when I got home.

[00:09:35] And, of course, it was another 15 or so years before legislation actually changed the UK approach to plastic bags. There was a brilliant, um, coverage on BBC Look North or BBC Northwest or something. Um, looking at the impact 2 weeks, just 2 weeks after the law changed and insisted we had to buy plastic bags instead of getting them for free, Um, with fishermen in, um, I think it was in the Humber, um, somewhere near hull, I think, And they were looking at, um, how much the fishermen had noticed a decline in plastic bags in their waters within 2 weeks. The decline was visibly noticeable, um, for those fishermen. So the impact of the whole country making what is essentially a very easy small change was massive, was visibly notable within 2 weeks.

[00:10:34] So I remind myself of that when I start to despair and think, you know, when we can create change. Sometimes we need telling from above. We're not gonna do it ourselves, although I had managed to. But when it's done and it's done effectively and people understand what it can do, um, it can really make a change quite fast.

[00:10:54] We saw in COVID as well. Right? When people stopped driving, when people stayed home, people who live near me in, you know, a dozy little Hertfordshire town, asthmatics already commented within 3, 4 weeks that their breathing was better. Um, so things that we don't even notice are bad can be changed in a matter of weeks. 

[00:11:20] Maeve Carlin: Thank you so much for sharing that story. I think that's one that'll stick with me. The idea that so quickly, we could see tangible change, and I think that tie into COVID and what we all remember from particularly those first weeks of the lockdown. It sort of brings that home. I'd also love to talk about your work with the Wellspring Project, which is bringing the Jewish ritual of Mikveh to a wider audience. Could you give us a brief introduction to the vision behind Wellspring and The ritual of Mikveh itself?

[00:11:54] Rabbi Debbie: So Mikveh is something that I felt really passionate about since I was a student Rabbi. Um, I did lots of my, um, Um, research work around Mikveh, around, um, bodies, and around rituals of transformation, which is, For me, what Mikveh really symbolizes today. 

[00:12:13] Um, Mikveh is a ritual bath where you go in completely naked, um, and with all your makeup and jewellery and all the sort of additions that we beautify ourselves with, uh, in life taken off. So going back to our most vulnerable selves, um, and it can be you with an attendant or just you in the Mikveh, um, with your maker or with yourself, um, really experiencing that sense of being the most basic, simple version of ourselves, not presenting a front to the world. It's a Jewish ritual that doesn't involve food. It's a Jewish ritual that doesn't involve family. It's a Jewish ritual that doesn't you’re your community, it's really, really personal. Um, there aren't that many moments that we have those opportunities.

[00:13:01] A lot of people associate Mikveh with the idea of impurity, bodily cleanliness, conversion. Things that might not be applicable to them or might only be applicable once. Um, and, actually, in the world as we live in it now, 2000 years after the destruction of the temple, Mikvehhisn't really about purification. Mikveh is about honouring cycles and transitions, and it's one of the most powerful Jewish rituals for doing that in part because it's so unique.

[00:13:33] So the Wellspring project, um, really, um, headed up and inspired by Rabbi Miriam Berger, who went on a similar journey to me, Um, a little later than me discovering the power of Mikveh particularly through infertility, um, she has Created this beautiful vision tied in with other Mikvot around the world that have already established themselves as open, pluralist, beautiful Ritual baths where people can really, uh, create their own, uh, liturgies, be supported in experiencing moments of transition, which can be really varied. It could be celebrating your annual recovery from, uh, drug addiction. It could be celebrating the end of chemotherapy. It could be mourning a loss or trying to process childhood abuse, uh, celebrating a seventieth birthday, going before you get married as a couple or as an individual.

[00:14:30] Um, there are so many wo many different ways. I have had the privilege of working with individuals on just creating really powerful ritual moments that can hold us through life and create deeper meaning. Um, you know, I've personally cried In the Mikveh. Because the Mikveh is our tears. Right?

[00:14:51] It can hold our waters. It can hold our tears. Um, in some ways, it's a little bit like a womb that can rebirth us each time we leave it. Um, so the Wellspring project itself is hoping to create this open pluralist Space that's for the whole Jewish community, not just 1 denomination, and we work cross communally with lots of people who are interested in it. We'll hopefully have treatment rooms that will allow for people to have all sorts of different therapies, speaking therapy, alternative therapies.

[00:15:23] And perhaps you might wanna honour the end of a series of counselling with an immersion in the Mikveh. Um, and at the moment, Mikvots are quite varied. Some are very lovely. Some are less lovely, um, but they're often delineated by denomination, and we want this to really be something that's open to everybody. Um, it will be strictly kosher, um, and it will give people lots of options around how they use Mikveh, whether it's, um, using your Guide to create a new liturgy or tapping into ancient liturgies that already exist.

[00:15:58] Um, and it's really, really exciting. Uh, Rabbi Berger is actually leaving her congregational job this summer in order to really focus on bringing Wellspring to fruition. So, um, Yes. If if anyone is interested in getting involved, I know that Miriam and her team are really excited to, um, to get people involved and to raise lots of money to make it happen. 

[00:16:21] Maeve Carlin: Wow.

[00:16:21] So exciting to hear how it's all evolving. And you touched on Infertility there, and I found it incredibly powerful to listen to you speak elsewhere about Your own experience of using Mikveh to navigate your journey with infertility and polycystic ovary syndrome. It sounds like ritual, whether it's Mikveh specifically or other forms of ritual, have been really vital tools for you to Keep faith through difficult times. 

[00:16:55] Rabbi Debbie: I I I absolutely think that's true, and I think I feel really blessed to be part of a tradition that has such rich and varied ritual, uh, moments for us to tap into. We can be creative, and I you know, I've made new rituals.

[00:17:12] Um, you know, when my daughter began her periods, we, On the day, created a a new ritual of a period picnic, um, and, um, you know, created little symbolic foods and had a little park picnic, just the two of us, and talked about what it means to now have this ability in our bodies and, um, how we need to be careful of how people touch us. And, um, I think the Nutella bars were, um, a reminder that if, uh, people touch you without consent, you can kick them in the nuts. You might not wanna include that. I don't know. 

[00:17:49] Maeve Carlin: We definitely will.

[00:17:51] Rabbi Debbie: Um, But, yeah, I think finding ways that our tradition can hold us through life is one of the greatest gifts of Judaism. And that's both really positive and really negative moments. Um, you know, I think strange thing to say, but Jewish ritual, when it's done Well holds death beautifully. Right? We give people permission to really feel what they're feeling and not to hide it away and feel it in private, but to feel it communally, to let it out, um, because if we don't, then we don't get on with living properly afterwards.

[00:18:28] And I think a lot of these things are about giving us the tools to continue living really, really well. So when I, um, and my husband were, Uh, we knew we would struggle to conceive, and it was about a 6 year journey before we, um, were able to conceive our daughter. You know, there were months when, obviously, you never know if it's gonna happen or not, and you can so easily lose hope. Um, and it doesn't happen to everybody, and that's part of the reality of it. Um, but Mikveh for me then became a really powerful tool on a monthly basis because one of the rituals Mikveh ties in with is a woman's monthly period.

[00:19:08] Um, I was able to take that very private vulnerable space as a space for processing. Um, I created my own liturgy, um, for use, which acknowledged my sense of loss and also my desire to return to hope as I sort of went home out of the Mikveh that this is a new month and a new chance, and you never know. Um, and, actually, I've been astonished. You know, you put things out onto the internet. I've uploaded it to a a site called Ritualwell, which is an amazing Collection of, um, modern creative liturgies run by the reconstructionist movement in America, um, Ritualwell.Org.

[00:19:46] I uploaded it there, and I have had so many people tell me they've come across it or used it or, you know, it was being taught in a LAMOOD session, which is a big conference In Canada, by someone I'd never met. I was contacted by an amazing woman in Israel who works on lots of, uh, areas around infertility and liturgy, And she asked if she could translate it into Hebrew and put it in a book. There is so much need out there. And I also think it's really important that we do talk about these things. So many women tell me, and men, that they felt they had nowhere to go when they were struggling with infertility, that they couldn't talk to anyone about it, that it's embarrassing, that it's shameful.

[00:20:26] You know, your body isn't doing what you think it should do, what it's designed to do. It feels like so many things are happening. Um, and the more we talk about it, the more we give permission to people to feel that, a, they can talk about it, and b, they're not alone, and c, it's not so unusual. Your body isn't failing you. This is something that happens, and we know it's always happened.

[00:20:45] If we go right back to our biblical matriarchs, they all struggled, um, Other than, uh, Leah, but that's a story for another day. Um, Yeah. I think ritual can be a really powerful way of holding Our joy and our trauma and our grief, and helping us sit with it and and be with it and be part of it and carry on living as well as we can. 

[00:21:12] Maeve Carlin: I think you touched on so many moments of Everyday transition that we all experience and things that are quite pivotal, but we don't really have Space to hold them or acknowledge them or process them. 

[00:21:29] Rabbi Debbie: And, actually, Judaism Really does that on a microcosm.

[00:21:34] We say blessings for the most mundane of things. So stuck outside our toilet is a blessing for going to the toilet. Right. It's we should give thanks that our bodies are working because if they don't, you really know about it. So, you know, just giving thanks for waking up in the morning, giving thanks for going to the toilet, giving thanks that I could eat toast for breakfast.

[00:21:56] Um, there are blessings for all of these things because it's I I think of it as a sort of, um, mindfulness practice. Right? Really Connecting to gosh. Isn't it wonderful that I can do this? 

[00:22:09] Maeve Carlin: This might link back to that mindfulness practice you were talking about. But at WIN we talk a lot about bridging the gap between secular and religious spaces, I think sometimes secular culture, and I say this as someone with a secular upbringing myself, struggles with how do we respond to these moments of transition. 

[00:22:33] So what would you say to the woman listening to this thinking, what does ritual have to do with me and my life?

[00:23:22] Rabbi Debbie: I think it's different for everybody.

[00:23:24] And for some people, might not be what speaks to them. Although I think we probably all have our own little rituals in different ways. There are rituals that people perform before going to bed. The humanist society has lots of officiants who step in to offer funerals and weddings and all sorts of things for people who don't have a faith, um, but want to ritualize these special moments. Um, you know, we have secular, uh, council weddings. Those are still ritual moments because we want to publicly celebrate or mark something. Um, and sometimes we want to privately celebrate or mark something.

[00:24:02] I think 1 of the fascinating things for me in this conversation about secular and religious is that actually to be Jewish isn't necessarily a faith. It's a way of life. And I know plenty of Jews who do more or less of those many, many rituals. And God may not be a part of that conversation, which is often surprising when we go into interfaith dialogue spaces. Um, you know, people of faith want to have dialogue with people of faith, but Jewish people are sometimes faithful.

[00:24:34] Um, but often it's a sense actually our Judaism is a sense of family, is a sense of belonging and community. And let God worry about the God part We'll just get on with living and doing what we need. And, actually, for me as someone who does have faith, I think that's what God wants of us. It's to get on with making the most of this life and of this, um, gift of the world and of existence that we have. So it's I do think ritual is there for everyone. Um, and it's just finding that which speaks to us, and sometimes we need an expert to help us find that.

[00:25:14] Um, and one of the greatest joys for me is, you know, congregants coming and saying, Gosh. I really want a ritual to mark x y z. You know, I'm finishing breastfeeding or, um, I'm going to Australia for a year. What can we do to mark it? And and helping people find those moments of connection to just Hold all their emotions publicly or privately in the light.

[00:25:40] Maeve Carlin: I mean, when you were talking about how we all have everyday rituals, I was thinking thing about, you know, this social media phenomenon of posting your bedtime or morning routine online 

[00:25:53] And sharing that . I haven't seen that one. 

[00:25:54] 1. Yeah. People film themselves waking up in the morning and, like, brushing their teeth.. 

[00:26:02] Uh, and you think, wow.

[00:26:03] Yeah. We're all sort of ritualizing our lives in different sort of mundane ways, aren't we? 

[00:26:09] Rabbi Debbie: I mean, coffee is part of my morning ritual. If I don't have my coffee, I can't function. And it is really, you know, my husband is the the person in charge of the coffee in the morning while I'm emptying the dishwasher or sorting out kids' breakfast.

[00:26:21] You know, we have little roles that we take on. They might not be the most meaningful rituals of the day, um, but they are repetitive. 

[00:26:29] Maeve Carlin: Yes. Repetitive and sort of central to our ways of being. 

[00:26:34] Rabbi Debbie: I just think the other part of ritual for me is, uh, it's a term that a wonderful friend of mine who used to be a Buddhist monk, Amarnato Samanera, he, uh, he calls it spiritual technology.

[00:26:47] And I think it's a really powerful way of expressing what some of this ritual stuff does for us. Um, you know, for example, the wearing of tefillin, which is the black boxes that you often see Jewish men wearing. I wear them too, and there are lots of women in the progressive movements that do. Um, they're bound 7 times around the arm. And, um, when you finish praying, you take it off.

[00:27:09] There's meant to be a mark left on your arm. And for me, that's an incredible piece of spiritual technology reminding me that when I leave the space of prayer, what my arm does, what my actions are, it's really important. I have to take the words that I've prayed and turn them into reality in the world beyond. And the arm is a spiritual technology to remind me of that. Just like tassels, those Jews who wear tassels, it's a it's a spiritual technology to catch your eye and make you think about a certain way of being in the world.

[00:27:37] Um, so, you know, I think spiritual technology is a is a wonderful Term that helps us think about what it is that these rituals offer us. 

[00:27:49] Maeve Carlin: I think It's impossible to talk about keeping faith in the current climate Without talking about the recent shocking rise in Anti-Semitic and, Islamophobic, hate crime, You've spoken so movingly about not letting ourselves be hardened by anger, Which is something I think many of us can relate to now, as well as finding and holding on to moments of light. Can you share how you're keeping faith right now and what tools you're using to support your congregation to do the same? 

[00:28:36] Rabbi Debbie: Yeah.

[00:28:36] It's a funny one. I don't think when all of this started that I imagined it would go on for as long as it has, and I think there's sort of been stages almost in how we've done this. I think I will never forget those first couple of weeks, you know, when so I stood on our pulpit on the seventh of October, um, and we were celebrating Simchat Torah, which is the most joyous festival of the year. And we were honouring people in our community who we wanted to celebrate. And I started the service.

[00:29:09] I was saying, you know, we're not quite clear what has happened, um, but we know that we're at war. We know that there have been hostages. We know that there have been killings and terrible things have happened. And, um, I try to use the imagery of, um, a Jewish wedding, which talks about, you know, the temple has been destroyed, but the bride and groom will be heard singing and celebrating once again. Um, we have images of brides and grooms on Simchat Torah who are sort of coming as brides or grooms to marry the Torah.

[00:29:40] So we tried to use that as a sense of we are still going to celebrate, um, but we're also holding a pain. And, actually, as I said it, I realized that people in the community didn't know what I was talking about. People hadn't heard at 10:30 in the morning, and I was somehow breaking this news to them. And it was a very strange I think on that morning, we didn't really know the full extent of what had happened. We were just picking up pieces.

[00:30:08] And the next Saturday, I had an amazing, um, bar mitzvah boy who had obviously spent the last, you know, year, year and a half preparing for this morning. Um, his family and friends were all coming to celebrate with him. And the stress of of thinking about how do I celebrate this when so much pain has just occurred and is still happening and we don't know, and we're at war. And he he almost wanted to not do it, and he was very, very, uh, stressed out as we all were really. And I said to him, I'm so glad that you have found the strength to do it because we have to keep doing our Jewish.

[00:30:50] We have to keep celebrating those things that are important because so many people want to get rid of that and do away with us doing our Jewish. It's really important to find the positive connection to why this matters. Um, it was a very, very powerful service. I think people cried. I would say 60 percent of the community at 1 point or another in the service, but most people didn't know that.

[00:31:16] I had the sort of view from the from the front. And I think, you know, we were fearful and mournful, and we couldn't stay in the depths of that forever, but we also haven't been able to leave it yet. Um, it's really complicated. People, um, are experiencing a lot of antisemitism. We know there's also been a lot of Islamophobia.

[00:31:49] It's I I've not seen antisemitism like it Until the last few months, particularly online. Um, and I think, you know, there isn't time, and I'm not the person to do it. But the difference between what anti Zionism and anti Semitism is is a a really, um, Difficult thing to unpick and a complicated thing to unpick, and people have oversimplified so much of all of this on both sides um, and have demonized so much on both sides. For me, personally, It's about keeping hope for a 2 state solution that allows, um, dignity and justice for everyone in the land. But anyone who starts to kind of want to crush either side is is taking us away from that.

[00:32:47] And it's very difficult to sit in spaces of nuance and spaces of Hearing the other at times like this, um, it's really, really important. I think I do feel very dark about it at times. But also, you know, over the last few weeks, I think the hope for a 2 state solution has kind of returned in a way that it didn't exist 2 years ago because we didn't see any way that the government or the partners for peace were gonna make that happen. Um, and, actually, the international pressure for that now, um, has grown, um, but it has to be Both. It can't be like, no one's gonna win.

[00:33:37] It's got to be both, um, as I understand it. I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me politically or or whatever. And interestingly, another podcast that I'm involved in, we were asked to talk about this issue about a year and a half ago, I mean, a year ago, um, as 3 Rabbis. Um, and, obviously, we weren't at war at the time. But, um, of the half hour podcast, we spent the first 10 minutes talking about our breakfast because we really Just didn't wanna do it.

[00:34:04] It's such a difficult thing to engage in with nuance, and you know that whatever you say, you're gonna upset somebody. Um, but, ultimately, I want to be in a place of really trying to feel clarity on what are the values And, um, what do we want to work towards? So I have always put my efforts into, um, how can we create Spaces of meetings, spaces of coming together for opposing sides. Um, how can I invest in projects In Israel, in the West Bank, in, um, communities that are working towards Peace that are working towards holding both communities? Um, and we just have to keep pushing for, um, that understanding, um, and an understanding of the nuance and and diversity that exists.

[00:35:39] Maeve Carlin: Thank you so much for those reflections, Rabbi Debbie. You kept coming back To the word nuance. And I think it's something that we're in such desperate need of. And something I've noticed is I think there's so much suffering that I think Some people don't have the capacity for nuance right now.

[00:35:59] Uh, so the more we we can create space for it and Hold on to it and celebrate it when we can find it. I think the better. And also what you said about Sort of celebration and ritual becoming acts of resistance and, precious things in times of darkness, I think that's really important as well. 

So I just have one last question, Which is, how can those of us listening keep faith in our ability to make a difference in our communities when these challenges, Whether it's the climate crisis or intercommunity tensions, feel so much bigger than us. 

[00:36:43] Rabbi Debbie: Find your people.

[00:36:45] Find the people who can keep faith with you and who can light candles with you because one candle is lovely, but six candles together makes a much brighter glow. Um, so the more we can find ways to collaborate, ways to support one another and often this work requires long term relationships. It's not something we can just wake up one morning and say this is going to work. And that's why the work of groups like the women's interfaith network is so important because we're working to create those relationships over a long time and not just saying, um, there's a crisis moment. We have to be together.

[00:37:24] But, actually, uh, there's a crisis moment, and this friend of 10 years might have a different view to me, but we can stand together and find those points of connection and meaning and hear each other's sides. 

[00:37:40] Maeve Carlin: Thank you so much, Rabbi Debbie.

[00:37:41] We are so grateful to Rabbi Debbie for making the time to speak with us today.

[00:37:50] If you want to find out more about the Wellspring Project or Faith for the Climate, we'll be linking their websites in the episode notes wherever you're listening to this podcast.  

Thank you for listening to this episode of Keeping Faith: A How To Guide. Subscribe now on your podcast app to be the first to hear about our upcoming episodes, and please leave a review or share with a friend to help more people find us. To find out more about the podcast, the 2024 Keeping Faith Programme or to get involved with the Women’s Interfaith Network, you can follow the links in our show notes or go to wominet.org.uk. Until next time, Keep Faith!

Keeping Faith: A How-To Guide was created by the Women's Interfaith Network. The podcast is co-produced by me, Maeve Carlin, and Adam Brichto. Our executive producer is Lady Gilda Levy. Theme music was composed by Jamie Payne and our logo was designed by Jasey Finesilver.